Originally by: Forluhn

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Deathstar > all

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Originally by: Rwoxz

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Asgard > all

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Originally by: Atsuko Ratu

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Wouldn't "vs not eve related stuff" be the definition of "not eve discussion"

In other words, wrong forum?

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Originally by: Atsuko Ratu

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Originally by: Jack Airron

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"EVE vs none eve ships" therefore your argument is invalid.

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This forum isn't for comparing things that have nothing to do with the game, or ships, or modules.

Try general discussion, or perhaps out of pod.

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Originally by: Falco Peregrenus

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Honestly Sci Fi hasn't really come up with an equal ship to the Enterprise, or starfleet really. THey don't rely on ammo based weapons, their shields are far superior to anything EVE has, not to mention their advanced sensor arrays capable of finding ships in warp. The other universes that may be comparable, technology wise to EVE would be battlestar galactica and star wars.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 19/08/2008 13:37:57
"Stargate ships could pwn any star trek ships"
Stargate ships suffer from the same problem many do against Star Trek. Stargate ships fight at sub light speeds at short range. Star Trek ships fight at over light speeds at silly long range's. All a Star Trek ship needs to do is warp in circles and fire and the Stargate ship cannot do much to fight back.

As long as Star Trek ships stay in warp and fight they are pretty much invincible against many other ships.

I wouldn't want to bet on who would win at sub light speeds. Stargate ships have advance 1000's if not 10,000's of years in tech in a 2 or 4 years time frame. Stargate ship warp speeds in Star Trek must be the same as warp 9.999999999 or something crasy fast like that.

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Originally by: Sajuuk Preator

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I normally wouldn't chip in, but this thread is too long.

See here http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/wmd.html for details

It basically takes the facts and figures from "canon" materials such as published books and the starwars website and compares them.

The figures basically show that an x-wings sheilds use more energy than the NC-1701-D generates in its warp core.

This pretty much shows that an asleep TIE fighter pilot could blow up most of the Federaton Fleet without any effort at all, along with that an abandoned but still powered B-wing could passively tank the Romulan Fleet.

HOWEVER - It'd be up to someone else to work out where eve ships fit into this category along with powe outputs and so on. Given that EVE ships use mbits for drone bandwidth however I'd expect a star trek shuttle pilot could simply slowboat and ram all of the eve universe ships to death, with the (possible) exceptions of the Jovians.

TL;DR

Where star trek has guns that do megawatts of energy, starwars is in yotawatts.

Starwars ships are so overpowered that you'd have to use ships from Larry Nivens "Ringworld" just to survive the 1st hit

Just my 0.2 isk anyway, feel free to prove me wrong etc.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 19/08/2008 13:37:57
"Stargate ships could pwn any star trek ships"
Stargate ships suffer from the same problem many do against Star Trek. Stargate ships fight at sub light speeds at short range. Star Trek ships fight at over light speeds at silly long range's. All a Star Trek ship needs to do is warp in circles and fire and the Stargate ship cannot do much to fight back.

As long as Star Trek ships stay in warp and fight they are pretty much invincible against many other ships.

I wouldn't want to bet on who would win at sub light speeds. Stargate ships have advance 1000's if not 10,000's of years in tech in a 2 or 4 years time frame. Stargate ship warp speeds in Star Trek must be the same as warp 9.999999999 or something crasy fast like that.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 20/08/2008 22:48:32
"and it's rediculous to believe that any weapon system could track a target in normal space time while that ship is at warp"
According to the technical manual your wrong. Federation ships and torpedoes have FTL sensors and computers that process at FTL speeds page 129.
During the show there have been times where a torpedo was fired from impulse then went to warp and fired from warp and hit impulse targets e.c.t. New ships like the Voyager and even the real old ships like the Enterprise NX-01 have fired weapons while at warp.

A federation ships can shoot torpedoes at targets with the torpedoes at warp speed. The kinetic damage alone from the speed is enough to take out most ships from none Star Trek universe's. So I stand by what I said Star Trek could just shoot stargate and star wars ships from warp speed.

EDIT: There have been times where torpedoes where shot from 600 million km away and all hit there target. This is the reason Star Trek ships outrange most other ships, they can sit lightyears away and fire at you. There was that time when mark VI photons torpedoes travailed 675,000,000km to hit a Dreadnought missile and all torpedoes hit. Flight time was 1.5seconds. That was a small target as well.





"The problem with your points is that they all rely on laws of physics that vary from one IP to another."
I assume if a ship can do something in the Star Trek or Eve universe then that ship can do it in the other universe if it somehow crossed over. Otherwise it becomes impossible to really compare. That or any ship crossing over to another universe would stop working right away as the laws of physics its tech is based on no longer apply along with the fual and ammo problems. reactors shut down, life support goes off e.c.t

I also assume tech with the same name between universes is really the same. for example I assume lasers are the same and not different weapons with the same name between universes. Same for railguns and other weapons. They might work a little differently due to laws of physics change's but they are still the same weapon. Unless its very clear they are not the same.



"On the other hand, to refute your "firing in warp" point; Star Trek ships cannot keep their shields up while at warp,"
What since when? Are you thinking of cloaking that lowers shields. Warp doesn't as far as I recall. Then again it has been years since I watched Voyager. Got any links that say shields drop? With the amounts of fights at warp speeds I dont bealive shields go down.




" but what you are spouting is the same old stuff that's shot down time and again since the whole 'vs. debates' started. A Good site & forums which took centre place in these sorts of 'debates' in the last few years,"
At a glance I don't see my bits being shot down. I see them ignore things like deflecting lasers in the Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes on the front page. But it's a big site, could you link to bits that shout my ideas down? I quickly looked on the forum and found some people talking about lasers and tuber lasers being deflected. No one shot that idea down. Didn't see anything talking about fighting at warp speed.




"Pottsey that's a blatent 'no limits fallacy' and proven untrue in other ST episodes when Solar radiation is a threat"
That's because the Enterprise wasn't the ship with the adjusted shields so Solar radiation is a threat. At least I don't think it was the Enterprise pretty sure it was a test ship. Been over 10 years since I watched that episode.

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Originally by: Ash Bringer

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srry to interrupt but this page of this thread nothing to do with eve :P

Go home geeks

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 22/08/2008 20:36:56
"even if star trek could fire torps in warp the max yield of a photon torp is only 60MT."
That's because even without the warhead its more deadly than most weapons. A two meter long, two hundred and fifty kilogram object, travelling at way over 500,000,000 KM/S is pretty deadly without the warhead backing it up. The Kinetic damage from that is crazy, far higher than 60MT I bet. Anyone want to do the math. Anyway photon torp are the lowest end torps on a Star Trek ship. If they shot a photon torp and it did no damage they would just swap to the high end torps.




"As to the rest, you never see a ST ship fight at warp against a non-warp target,"
"Untill the later DS9 early voyager season Comabat in warp never really happened."
It happened all the time even in the older stuff. Its rare because no one in their right mind would move that slow in a fight.

Star Trek, The Motion Picture the Enterprise is going at warp 1 and gets stuck in warp due to an engines malfunction. They fire a torpedo to destroy an asteroid without coming out of warp. Then after the asteroid is destroyed they fix the engine and slow to impulse.

Episode Balance of Terror Kirk orders "Full ahead Mr Sulu, maximum warp" then orders to fire on the Romulan ship. Romulan ships back then didn't have warp drives. In fact wasn't the whole reason the Federation won the first war with the Romulans was due to the warp drive.

Episode Elaan of Troyius had some warp 6/7 speed battles between the Enterprise.

Episode The Ultimate Computer. An old class ore freighter ship which has no warp drive is shot at. The Enterprise is cruising at warp 3 then accelerates to warp 4 for the attack and the ship is destroyed





" When earth was under attack by Anubis the plasma blasts he fired where equal to a 1000MT nuke. and the earth ships now with asguard shields and weapons would never be hurt by that amount of energy let alone a 60 MT nuke."
Photon torpedo are low powered torpedoes, the hard hitting torpedoed use ZPM like power.

You know those ZPM's zero-point energy modules that power ships in Stargate. Star Trek use the same energy as that per torpedoe (Quantum torpedoes). All the power one Stargate ship has focused into 1 torpedoe. Then multiple that power as more then 1 torpedo is shot. Quantum torpedoes would devastate starwars and stargate ships. Quantum torpedoes derive their destructive power from zero-point energy. ZPM like power in a torpedoes moveing at over 500,000,000 KM/S.

If the Quantum torpedoes somehow are not enough and war broke out they will have to just bring out the Transphasic torpedoes the most powerful weapon used on a Federation ship in the Star Trek universe. Though its not clear how many they have and for sure they are not on ships as standard.

There are also the Phased plasma torpedoes which use an advanced variation of the quantum torpedo that can phase out of normal space-time to bypass shields and apear in your hull. Although they are illegal like pretty much all phase tech like the Pegasus device. I am sure in a bad situation like a losing war they would break the treaty and use all the phase tech. One shuttle with a Pegasus device would be able to take down a Deathstar or any ship in Starwars. No wonder its illegal.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 22/08/2008 21:08:40
" ok so now that we are entering the realm of "IF" "BUT" all a stargate ship would have to do is beam the torp that the star trek ship fired right back at them or use the rail guns as point defence
blarg"
Little problem Stargate ships cannot fire point defence at something moving faster than the speed of light. Pretty sure they cannot beam something moving that fast. Stargate have the same problem as Startrek in that they cannot beam with shields up. If one ship droped shields it opens them up to none torp/missile weapon fire. Plus torps are not used one at a time normally a volly is sent. Can they even beam up more than one FTL object at once? If they could why don't they ever beam darts and other slow moving weapons let alone FTL moving ones? Realistically both ships would have shields up in a fight. Beaming teach doesn't really factor into it. Its far to short range and to risky.

Anyway if StarTrek met Stargate it would be super boring all they would want to do is talk all day about humanity and peace.
I recon though Stargate V Starwars would be interesting.

EDIT: Or put it another way by the time the torp was in beaming range and hit the ship less then half a second would have gone by if not much less. I dont think there would be time to get a lock and beam it unless it was moveing at slow speeds which would be very odd.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 22/08/2008 23:07:20
" all a stargate ship would have to do is beam the torp"
I just remember torpedoes have their own shields. So no beaming.



"The shield of the Daedalus stood up to a Planet Killing SOLAR FLARE"
The Federation torpedoes with much weaker shields then the ships can enter a sun and burrow into its stellar core before the shields fail. Once a ship spent hours in the sun corona without any damage.

EDIT: Enterprise also hid in a star's corona far more impressive then one tiny solar flare. In fact the Daedalus can only last a short while there going be how the flar effected it and by what happaned in "The Daedalus Variations" This shows the Enterprise has stronger shields.




" however there is one problem with you fighting at warp theory. "
It's not a theory they do it all the time. I clearly listed episodes and movies where they do it from the original Star trek to the newer ones.




" Earth ships can teleport just fine with shields up thanks to Asgard tech."
No they cannot. First episode of the latest session "In order to beam Sheppard and Dex out, the shields of the Daedalus are lowered temporarily, and Michael's cruiser is able to score a few direct hits taking the Asgard weapons and engines off-line" Cannot think of any time they didnt lower shields.




"Stargate ships would most likely own."
Yes they do if they can hit their target. My point is a Startrek ship could stay at warp and never get hit by the Stargate ship, yet the Startrek ship could fire back. That and I believe the Star trek high powered weapons match the Asgard weapons if not do more damage then the Asgard. Like I said before the power source for the whole entire Daedalus is the same type of power source Startrek use per torpedo. Surly that gives star trek the edge. Asgard are one race the Federation is made up of 150+ race's each an empire in their own right and many who have been in space a very long time. The humans are new in space but the other Federation race's are not thats why the ships are so advance.




"Naquada enhanced nukes"
They are about the same power level as the weakest Federation torpedoes at my estermate.





" why is it that in star trek first contact that they did not just zip around the Borg cube at warp 7-9?"
I believe most of the Federation's defense force where doing that. A defense force is normally made up of a lot of ships, far more then was on screen. We only had what 10 on screen? Either the Borg destroyed 90%+ of the fleet or the rest of the fleet was at light speeds and we couldn't see them as we are viewing the battle from a handful of ships moving at sub light speed. What makes the most sense to me is most ships we could see had battle damage and lost warp power. The other possibilities are phasers are generally impulse speed weapons perhaps they wanted to use phasers at close range? Well the battle had been going on for a while and was almost at the end. Who knows perhaps the Borg used some anti warp field that stopped ships staying in warp? Perhaps there was no tactical advantage in being in warp as the Borg can hit ships in warp just as well as sub warp. For all we know the ships where fighting at warp and only dropped out of warp due to damage or as they got close to Earth.

Most of the ships being at warp and a handfull not I think is the best bet.

Well we all know the real reason, warping in circles and firing torps at long range would be boring on screen. The end of a battle at sub light speeds with the planet earth in the background looks far better on screen.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 00:07:20
"

"Well, considering they can fire their own weapons without lowering their shields, I donm't see why not. There are plenty of shots showing ships firing their weapons while their shileds are taking massive damage"
Well they cannot use beam tech with shields, I gave you a recent episode where they almost lost the ship as they had to drop shields to use beam tech.




" The federation ships have perefected this to the extent of firing it on every torpedo?"
Yes for the war ships but no for none war ships. The none war ships have a stock of those torpedoes along with a stock of weaker normal photon torpedos. The war ships we have only ever seen shoot the powerfull torpedo's.





"If you're talking about Quantum torpedoes, yeah.. still not taking out solar systems..."
That's because they are focused making them more deadly. Instead of a solar system wide explosion you have that much energy forced into a small blast area. An explosion that covers a solar system is well useless, not only does it hit you and friendly targets but it means spreading the energy around a vast area. Focuseing that energy in a blast the size of a ship is more deadly, with the crazy strength of Star Trek shields that can fly into suns. You need to focus that energy. The last time Quantum torpedoes was used the explosion visually resembled a supernova but the blast area was contained in a small area. There have been lots of refrence's to changeing the blast size of torpedoes.

Torpedoes have at least 16 settings and you can modifier more if needed with a few hours work.






" Fine, if Earth ships can't hit it, they would just fly away. Can Federation ships fly at 31,250 ly per hour?"
It looks like it depending on the ship. http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Warp_factor explains how to covert warp to ly per hour. Enterprise E has a cruise speed of up to warp 9.985 which I believe is over 31,250 ly per hour. It can push faster for short periods of time. The Enterprise D was a cruise speed of 9.6, which it could go over for short bursts. I think 9.6 is below 31,250 ly per hour.

A very old ship like the Voyager maximum warp is 9.975




[b]"By comparison a photon torpedo does 64.5 megatons."
As I said many times before a photon torpedoed can be adjusted to do more or less than 64.5 megatons. It can be adjusted up to destroy small planet which is a lot more then 64.5 megatons. A photon torpedo is the low end of torpedo you don't even get photon torpedos on Federation war ships so why does it matter? If war broke out between Stargate and StarTrek photon torpedoes would not be used in fleet battles.


EDIT:
Another thing about torps is they come in types and marks. The 64.44 megaton nuclear explosion is from the very old torps. The USS Voyager had type-6 photon torpedos which at default level are 523.2megatons. Class-10 torpedoes could be armed with an even more powerful high yield warhead but I don't have in info on numbers.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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"For example, You can't travel faster than warp 10, except when its made possible to advance the plot."
That's not a inconsistency the scale of warp in the 23rd century is not the same as the 22nd century. Warp is a sliding scale based on current tech. Warp 5 in the early years of Enterprise 1 is much slower then warp 5 in the years of Enterprise D. In the 22nd century warp scaled from 1 to 40+ in the 23rd its 1 to 10. In the 24th century they re added warp 11, 12, 13 into the scale instead of having warp 10 as max. Really warp 11 in the 24th C is today's warp 9.9999999999 or something like that.

It's not really practical to go warp factor 9.99999. Now speed up to warp 9.999999. So every so often in the timeline as speeds get faster they readjust what speeds each warp represents. It seems to get adjusted once a century.

I do agree with your point about making new tech up. I mentioned it ages ago how they can never lose as they invent technobable. But it's not that much worse than other shows like Stargate Atlantis. It thought SGL had the right ballance but Atlantis is just as bad in fact I think it's getting worse recently. It feels like they are falling into the trap of lets use McKay to do something fancy to got us out this plot problem just like star trek did. Stargate needs to go back to the early SGL days in how they told storys. Atlantis has fallen to much into random new tech.





" Stargate ships travel to other galaxy a star trek ship cant do that so id say Stargate ships are quite a bit faster."
Well we have the light years per hour both ships can go at and Stargate ships are not faster. Well depends on which ship we are looking at.
There is a reason Star Trek ships don't go out the galaxy as there is a Galactic Barrier or Great Barrier which is an energy field that surrounds the Milky Way Galaxy in the Star Trek universe. The field completely encompasses the galaxy and prevents travel beyond the edge. It's never explained if the barrier is natural or artificial. Most ships that try and go though the barrier end up in lots of little bits.
The Enterprise and lots of have tried to leave the Milky Way Galaxy before.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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"Even at Maximum warp, Voyager would've taken I think 75 years to return to the Alpha Quadrant..."
Yoyager series was based on a false premise. For the ship to take 75 year it would have needed to travel at a slow warp of 7.9 to fly 75k light years which is nowhere near its max cruising speed or max total speed. Voyager never made any sense they had the supplies and fuel to travel back to the Federation in warp without stopping in a fraction of the time it took them.

I don't see how Stargate ships with their current speeds can travel between galaxy's as fast as they do. The math doesn't add up. Unless the Pegasus galaxy is very close to the Milky Way, closer then the nearest real galaxy.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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Edited by: Pottsey on 23/08/2008 23:20:30
"and I'm sure the voyager series is wrong and your right"
Your just makeing your self look stupid with comments like that and roleing eyes. Role your eyes as much as you want but its math and math doesn't lie. You can work it out yourself.

No matter how you look at it voyager is wrong.
It's wrong by the official speeds it should go.
Its wrong by the speeds it goes in the show.

They would have to go at a speed of warp 7.9 to take 75 years at the official warp speed scale.

The whole Startrek warp speed thing is messed up in all the shows. It never makes any sense. Paris describes warp 9.9 as 4 billion miles per second which is 21,458 times the speed of light. Yet the official scale warp 9.9 is 3,053 times the speed of light.

Voyager crosses 2 light years in 2 hours which means it could get home in less than 8 years. Yet the Enterprise can do the same 75k lightyear trip in 12 to 15 hours, but it takes the Voyager 75 years even though it goes fast enough to do it in less then 8? It's all just crazy and makes it impossible to compare to Stargate speeds.

In fact I give up on comparing Startrek speeds there are too many inconsistency's.


EDIT: I take back my comment on Stargate ships speeds dont add up, they do.



" now with the hyperspace drive earth ships could get around the barrier that you say the star trek universe has surrounding the milkyway....."
You cannot go around the barrier it encircles the whole galaxy in every direction. It's like a massive bubble around the galaxy. The barrier also has psychic powers that effect people trying to go though, shields dont stop psychic powers.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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It doesn't matter if Voyager failed to blow up an asteroid they didnt use the powerful torps as even the high end photon torpedoes are the low end of torpedo weapons. Other ships have blown up asteroids. Guess I was wrong on a blow up a small planet comment. Going have to rematch it.

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Originally by: Pottsey

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"so in first contact why did they not just one shot the Borg cube?"
The Borg are not an undefended asteroid without shields.
They did one shot Borg cubes with a new weapon systems 5 years after First Contact. But during First Contact they didn't have that much firepower.

The Borg have super strong shields and amour which can take on a Federations defence force at a time without a problem. At least they could until the Federation upgraded their weapons.

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